"Is Bates and FCPS at all interest in what is was about Herndon that prompted these boys' actions?" Are going to blame the school system? "That these boys' classmates see Bates' and FCPS' reaction as being over top should".....be a reflection of the lack of citizenship education and responsibility on the part of the students. Its graduation time - time to grow up - you don't graduate if you pull stunts like these right at the finish line. As for the lack of foresight and state of brain development being not unusal - are the other couple hundred students in that class unusual in that they didn't commit vandalism or endanger the community? One of the admitted vandals is so undeveloped brain wise that he has a scholarship.

Why do you assume it was done out of revenge?

Look around the County this time every year, NYNative, food fights abound. Pranks occur at almost every high school except where principals have a refined understanding of adolescent cognitive and emotional development and adjust their leadership styles to account for the limitations of those minds.

What the brain science, including MRI and other brain studies, is teaching us is that adolescent male minds are not fully wired to inhibit actions that the rest of society finds unacceptable. Their ability to forecast the consequences of their impulsive actions is limited. They literally can't help themselves.

It's not unlike blaming a blind person for bumping into an end cap in a grocery and knocking down a pile of tin cans.

Few FCPS high school principals have done advanced study (Masters and PHD) work in the study of adolescent cognitive development. They may have a PHD. They all insist in being called "Doctor." But their degrees are not in adolescent brain science.

If they had they wouldn't engender the kind of resentments that build up in these kids who increasingly describe their FCPS high school experience as prison-like.

Okay, John, I agree that it COULD be out of revenge/resentment.

But it is very presumptuous of you to assume that it MUST be so. The same brain science you cite indicates that some young men do this stuff "just because," and not out of any distaste for their school.

You have already assigned a motive without actual evidence, which is very dangerous.

Michael

the question posed was, "Is Bates and FCPS at all interest in what is was about Herndon that prompted these boys' actions?"

That question didn't presume any answer.

It could be thrillseeking, resentment or something else all together.

Understanding the source of this particular event could prevent future recurrences.

Yes, FCPS did the right thing. These go way beyond pranks. And yes, they clearly did foresee that someone could slip on the stairs with the oil, that's why they put it in that location, not on a table or desk.

Making excuses for kids' bad behavior over the years results in this kind of thing happening. It is astonishing that these kids are so outraged at their punishment, rather than remorseful.

To those who say their brains are not developed, then you ought to advocate raising the voting age, driving age, and drinking age. We do not want people who can't understand the consequences of their actions making these vital decisions.

Our society is infantilizing our young people and extending childhood to ridiculous limits. This is harmful to everyone. Their parents should be angry with their sons, not the school. In the long run, they will do their youngsters a favor.

Dell

What the science tells us they probably didn't foresee is the potentially serious or fatal injuries that could result from those falls

I can't agree. You only get one high school graduation. It's a very high price to pay. And it has no deterrent effect on the next class. this stuff happens every year.

Withhold their transcripts until they reimburse the schoof for the cost of the clean-up. Sure. Tack on some community service. Fine. but don't take away the capstone from them, their friends and most importantly, their parents for whom graduation is the end of 18 years of worry and effort.

Because their brains haven't mature enough.

What seems harmless to them, we adults see as grossly dangerous because our brains are fully developed so that we can anticipate adverse consequences for others.

No one is saying no consequences. but the consequence should fit the actual harm. Not leave a lasting bad memory of high school's completion.

They likely will not be arrested but will be issued a summons. It might even be for a felony.

I only wonder if they actually get a diploma. As long as that happens, it doesn't really matter if they walk. I skipped my graduation, and my diploma was mailed to me anyhow. I don't think of it as a big deal.

Tim, yes. They are getting their diplomas.

https://twitter.com/bigdarkass/status/213627199675301889

Morality depends on brain development.

Adults with brain injuries similar to the state of the adolescent brain have limited impulse control and an inability to foresee adverse consequences, especially for others.

Do you reject everything that science has to teach us?

I don't think you are going to get this John Farrell off the "brain development" issue. He seems to be convinced this is the answer to the problem here. Personally I think it is high time we stop protecting people like this and making excuses for them and have them start being accountable for their actions - good or bad.

Skipper

Ignoring brain science has not stopped events like this from happening every spring at almost every high school in the County.

The current FCPS paradigm is having no effect on changing this behavior.

Our juvenile justice system abandoned this model several years ago. Implemented a system based on the latest research and recidivist rates are falling.

Einstein wrote something about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result being a definition of insanity.

Thankfully, no JDR Judge would impose so ridiculous a consequence.

Mr. Farrell, you yourself said that the juvenile justice system implements a system acceptable to you. Then perhaps that is where these boys need to be. That doesn't mean every student thinks in this way.

George Washington was the surveyor for Culpeper county when he was 17. He was a major in the militia and one of 4 Virginia district Adjutants General by age 21. Lafayette was a major general for the Americans at age 19. These were obviously precocious people, but many at these ages have been quite mature and responsible in the past. Is today's culture making older teens infantile?

Dell

Washington engaged in tremendous risk-taking typical of late adolescence. He also exercised bad judgment in his dealings with the French at Pittsburgh and started a world war.

Since the processes we are talking about are organic, society's influence on those processes are limited.

Wait immature humans did immature things. I'm shocked.

Since the adults in the building know, or should know, that they are dealing with immature humans, isn't it the adults responsibility to us their own foresight to anticipate this yearly event and try strategies that are effective in avoiding them.

By all means let there be appropriate consequences. Not walking while not tragic is too harsh.

We should not be graduating immature humans from high school, calling them young men and women, They are obviously children, and still need to be monitored by adults. I propose they should spend more years in high school until they are indeed sufficiently mature humans who know not to pour oil on floors and stairs. Until then Mommy and Daddy need to care for them.

Our jobs as attorney in these cases is to make sure the charge fits the facts. Prosecutors have been known to overcharge from time to time.

And to make sure the punishment fits the crime.

Is there an objection to that?

Right to counsel is part of the Constitution. Or would you repeal that?

I am getting the strong impression that Mr. Farrell by virtue of all his seeming close monitoring of this issue and it posters might just have some personal interest here. Not sure, but it sure seems a bit odd that he monitors it so closely and responds to many individuals.

Don't be shy, Skipper, if you have an accusation to make do it explicitly and don't hide behind half clever innuendo.

See if you click on the "keep me posted" button, Patch's software send you an e-mail each time a comment is posted on a story that interests you. It's kind of simple.

John Farrell was the first to comment (Saturday 11:22. am)
His second sentence : "They need attorneys."
At 4:21 he comments: "Our jobs as attorney in these cases is to make sure che charge fit the facts."

Besides that, there's been an asstounding amount of psycho babble about how young people's brains aren't developed at 18. However, those in power have decided that their brains are enough developed for voting for President of the United States, not to mention,joining the Armed Services in the country's defense.

I gather that you don't agree that these young men are smart enough to know what is a prank and what is plain stupid. And, please, no more psycho babble!

Right to counsel / yes indeed. Any attorney would stand for that!
Hardly anything can be settled without attorneys today.

A classmate could have stepped on a bouncing ball and broken ankle or fallen fractured their skull and died.

One person's "prank" is another's outrage.

Some of us can break an ankle on a stray flip flop, speaking for the clutz contingent, but I agree the superball release was a prank. It's a silly image, and not something that is likely to stay put to be stepped on or colorless to be un-noticed.

No, John, superballs are not in the same league as baby oil. They are obvious for all to see. Baby oil, not so much. The danger here was MUCH more severe.
When you say "let the punishment fit the actual harm" you are making a dangerous argument. The logical extension of that is "I should be allowed to drive drunk as long as nobody actually gets hurt." The punishment should fit the reasonably judged risk of harm - the fact that there were no severe injuries is actually quite lucky in this case. If there had been, these boys would be in a lot more trouble - just on the sheer dumb luck of whether someone slips, or keeps their footing, on the baby oil. That's not a sound basis for determining the punishment, because their 'crime' was the same whether someone fell or not.

Actually, Michael, the law does take the absence or existence of harm into account when an offense occurs.

As I've already written in another comment, the absence of injury is relevant but not esculpatory

So's speeding. Shall we prohibit all high school grades who exceed the speed limit from walking.

The ceremony will be a lot shorter.

I am curious where you got the information about a security person falling in the baby oil. I had not heard that before.

Of course not, Susan. As I posted earlier, the fact that the "prank" caused a risk of harm is enough to require significant consequences. But an actual fall would be worth knowing about.

Sorry, I missed your earlier comments before asking that. My mind was still stuck on the unfortunate tweets I'd read by students printing flyers defending the accused on the basis that nobody was hurt. I was hoping to talk with one of them.

Not likely.

The connections in the brain are on their own timetable within each person's brain. While some boys' brains make the connection before others for most, they don't fully connect until 25.

Why are all the other commentators so hateful toward high school boys?

Wow!

Talk about hateful!

And anonymous to boot!

How very brave!

We know because we know it's not part of the FCPS hiring criteria for high school principals.

There was an excellent summary on adolescent brain development in a recent issue of National Geographic complete MRI images. I commend to those interested in an introduction to the subject matter.

When you have no real argument, or consider yourself an expert based on reading a NG article, then you resort to name calling.

Also, just because it's not in the criteria doesn't preclude that the principal has the training.

Dell

the NG article is a good summary, not the only source of this scientific reserch. Peer reviewed articles can be a struggle.

Arrest is unlikely. They'll be served with a summons.

That no one was hurt is relevant but not exculpatory.

To have your last memory of high school be involuntarily not walking is a big deal.

No delving into motives is necessary. Read the entire comment thread and tell me the theme here isn't hatefulness toward high school boys.

Since there are 80,000+ FCPS high school kids and 60,000 discipline events in the last year for which a report is available, it would appear the majority of boys, and girls, have a very tough time with avoiding the crossing various and sundry lines.

What the science tells us is that challenging boundaries is an essential part of childhood and adolescence.

JF, those 60,000 events do not correspond to 60,000 distinct students. Clearly they represent multiple incidents per student in a smaller subset.

Dell

How do you know 60,000 incidents represent multiple incidents by the same students. There'd have to 20,000 students with 2 incidents for less than a majority of students to have a discipline incident.

Rulebreaking is an integral part of adolescence

You and I absolutely agree here, as should be clear by my prior comments. I'd add community service like helping the custodians for a week or more instead of beach week.

Withholding the transcript until its done would be a sufficient inducement to complete the punishment.

Fines and fees must be paid before transcripts are sent now.

Walking in the ceremony is an honor. These boys forfeited it.

Dell

12 years of accomplishment are forfeit for one incident.

Seems a bit vengeful and disproportionate to the act.

Restitution and community service should be sufficient.

Let the boys walk.

I've already written that the baby oil is troubling, especially given its potential for falls leading to fatal skull fractures and broken necks.

Mark's comment demonstrates why hiring former military personnel to lead most educational institutions is rarely a good idea.

The military's purpose is training people to kill and to be willingly die. The lack of foresight, limited empathy for those outside their cadre and willingness to take risks in young men is essential to creating an effective fighting force. Otherwise, fear of death and empathy for those being killed would paralyze each of them. For many PTDS victims, the inability to supress these feeling lies at the heart of their cases.

Further, the level of coercion and control exercised by the military is completely inappropriate for a normal educational institution.

Questioning military authority undermines command. It's an offense under the UCMJ and punished as "insubordination." Failure to question authority is antithetical to the development of critical thinking that should be at the heart of the educational endeavor.

According to FCPS' own statistics, 75% of high school kids engage in some wrongful behavior each year which ought to rebut the idea that "the vast majority are good kids and these 5 are the exception." Apart from the very few sociopaths, they're all good kids including these 5 boys.

JF, 75% do not have discipline records; you're not understanding the math. 60K records does not equal 60K different students.

And insulting the military, which protects you and your way of life, is less than admirable. Please examine your prejudices more critically.

Dell

As I've already made clear, there is no insult to the military but rather a rejection of the military's experience with adolescents as an analogy upon which to examine this situation.

Should the 70% of your classmates who have used marijuana also be banned from the graduation ceremony?

How about the equal fraction who've consumed alcohol while they're underage?

How about those who have driven their car above the speed limit or not come to a full stop before turning right on red?

Teenagers' belief in the own invincibility is apart of the same risk taking behavior that is characteristic of the adolescent mind.

Make no mistake, Scot, we don't agree.

The standard can never be whether they are caught which only leads to deceit.

Adolescence is about making mistakes of all kinds. If every such action results in banning the miscreant from graduation, the ceremony would be over in minutes not the 3 hours it takes at most high schools.

Scott, you are an adult. Your parents must be very proud of you. Keep up the good work.

Frank

No one here is defending the actions of these 5 boys. No one has described them as victims.

Immature people do immature, inconsiderate acts. That's a tautology.

Many pranks can turn dangerous. Luckily, that didn't happen here.

We are questioning the appropriateness of not allowing them to join in the graduation ceremonies.

Very well put, Frank. I've got a kid in your class, and I expect her to consider the effects her actions can have on other people just as you do. I volunteer with one of the HHS teams, and all of the kids I have met are capable of that kind of consideration. The handful of "pranksters" who did this are the exception at HHS. While their punishment may seem out of proportion to some, the consequences of what they did could have been severely out of proportion to someone else should they have caused an injury.

But it didn't result in injury and our society does take the absence or presence of injury into account when imposing punishment.

No one has written that there shouldn't be consequences. We are saying that the consequence of not walking with your classmates is too harsh for these facts.

I already posted a couple of times, but want to especially thank you, Frank, for your comments.
As Ms. Riddick indicated, I, too, recognize that the guys who were involved with oil pouring are exceptions. We know that most HHS young people are thoughtful (or at least try to be), and have the common sense and sense of responsibility that you illustrate.
Btw, the man posting incessantly here made his point early, but seems to actually be using this unfortunate situation to continue to "beat his own drum", whatever it may be. Isn't that similar to the excessive tweeting on "#Let Them Walk..."?

More likely they will learn that adults overreact with disproportionate measures for retributive self-gratification.

Acceptable - no. Predictable-yes.

I was suggesting that your prior military experience offer no insights to the current situation at Herndon, Lieutentant. (Thank You for your service, BTW) And to note that the armed forces actually depend on the state of the adolescent mind to performits functions.

Methods of discipline that ignore what science has to teach us about the adolescent mind are doomed failure as the annual FCPS prank/food fight events demonstrate.

Doing something to the kids that makes the principal feel better haven't deterred repition of the events, every year.

Different approaches that have shown efficacy should be instituted.

Predictably, Bert, a straw man is elaborately constructed and vigorously knocked down.

Who is it that argued for absolution for these 5 boys?

Certainly not me.

I advocate for restitution and community service related to the offense given, such as working with the custodians for a week so that these boys can appreciate how hard the custodians work to keep HHS clean and withholding their transcripts from forwarding to their colleges or employers until these acts of restitution and restoration are completed.

My position is that not letting pranksters walk is disproportionate to the offense and has not served as a deterrent.

What we know about human behavior is that punishment rarely succeeds in developing desirable outcomes and has undesirable side effects.

The research shows that positive encouragement of desired behavior is far more effect in producing the desired outcome.

mTa - I disagree. I don't know Mr. Farrell, but he doesn't come across as a "bully." What he does come across here is a "know it all" who can't stand being disagreed with...he swooped in and made a generalization about me in order to get on a soap box to criticize the US military and the FCPS. Having studied - as a civilian and reservist - in all of the US higher military war colleges - I can assure you he is really off base on military leadership...but that isn't even the subject of this commentary. His disparaging comments implying that those who disagree with him on this "don't understand science" or to that effect don't lend to civil discourse. I am new to the Herndon Patch and think it is a great means of discussing community issues. But, one of the things I learned the hard way in writing to the old "Observer" was that making discussions personal is hurtful - I wrote a disparaging letter about George Taplin - attacking him personally and regreted it simply because it was personal and hurtful to George. What I do know about Mr. Farrell - if he is the one I found via Google - is that he is a community leader and cares about Reston. He evidently is on a personal crusade to reform discipline in the FCPS (which might be a good cause.) We just all need to not get personal and claim superior knowledge in these discussions. One of the problems with e-mail type discussions is that they do not lend themselves to curbing one's enthusiasms and the urge to get personal.

Well, Commander

Most of the research on which I rely has been published in the last 5-10 years. So I don't know how it can be described as "been around for a while" or how it could be "horse hockey."

FCPS' own statistics show that more than 75% of its high school kids engage in behavior requiring discipline. That would suggest the "vast majority" are not as described in your comment. Misbehavior is an integral part of adolescence. Almost all of them do it. Only some get caught.

You right, there's a typo in my reply to your first comment. It should have read "Mark's . . . . " as I was referring to the comment not its author.

I would not want FCPS high schools to become militarized, for our military has a very different purpose, nor do I want them to become penal colonies as many current students and recent graduates have described them.

Again, thank you for your service to our country which makes these kinds of arguments possible.

Mark

I'm glad we agree about the FCPS discipline system.

Sadlly, we disagree about the appropriate penalty for the actions of these 5.

Taking away their one and only high school graduation ceremony and taking it away from these 5 families is too harsh.

This punishment is regularly used by principals for all sorts of senior misbehavior. It doesn't work.

I'd rather have restitution and education of the effects of their actions on others like the custodians who had to remove the paint and baby oil.

We can't analogize from the military because the level of control of a serviceman's life is far greater than either of us would want in our high schools.

We can't analogize from the workplace because the level of control in the normal workplace is far lower than that which could be permitted in a school. [E.g., they let you leave the building for lunch at work.]

The recent research has used MRI and PET scans to compare the regions of the brain that fire in adults and adolescents in various ethical situations. The differences are astounding. The differences are biological not moral.

Charlie Rose has been doing a marvelous series on the brain for the last year or so. It's led me to the research upon which my opposition to the current FCPS discipline system has been based.

OK, I will agree that there is often no rational explanation for discipline policies in FCPS. However, I believe that in this case they got it right. And they along with the parents should have taught these kids long ago about civic responsibility.

Very well put, KH!

Young person KH...well stated and mature response...congratulations...and congratulations on your graduation...it seems like the FCPS and HHS have had a positive effect on your preparedness for the next stage of your life...best wishes to you and your family.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here. You have stated the situation well, and most of us in the community (I think) respect the maturity and sense of responsibility that most of the young people in HHS' Class of 2012 demonstrate every day in their lives.
Being a bit older with no kids in school, I see one or two folks using this case as a wedge to argue about the disciplinary system. IMHO, this is carrying political opportunism too far and filling the discussion with substantially irrelevant comments. Happens all the time. Glad you recognize this for what it is.
Thanks again for your mature participation and best wishes for continuing success.

No one is proposing that these 5 not be held responsible.

What we argue is that the punishment has no connection to the offense. There's no connection between "not walking" and this act. There's nothing educational in "not walking." It's purely retributive.

Principals have a great deal of discretion under the SRR.

Unfortunately the lesson learned will be that: adults overreact, care more about "their" buildings than about students. abuse whatever power they are given, are vindictive or any other undesirable lessons.

We adults can do better than this.

FCPS administrations have exercised similar authority every year the school has been open. Usually the request is made in cases of "obscene" or "hateful" messages, but it is difficult to see how this fits into either of those categories.

When I was at Herndon Middle School, I was told to take off my Coexist shirt. The sited reason was racism. I was made to comply because it was a teacher. I believe this falls into that category. Student's who have opposing opinions should be allowed to express themselves, because it is not disrupting the learning environment. As stated in the supreme court case Tinker Vs. Des Moines, where students wore black armbands to protest the Vietnam war. The court stated that students do not "Shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door."

Matthew, yes, the student earned a diploma... and will still receive the diploma. If the proposed punishment is inappropriate, please suggest a punishment that would better fit this crime?

We have. Restitution and community service connected to the offense.

Hey, Mr. Farrell, I know you like to see your name up here and have your opinion heard. However you were not the one being asked the question. Speak when spoken to.

Sorry, but they are lucky that they are getting to graduate all, especially now that it has come to light that someone was injured. They should count their lucky stars if they do not get charged with a crime and if their college acceptances are not rescinded.

There has been no confirmation that any one was injured.

A $5 library fee prevents someone from walking?

That's beyond petty.

But consistent with a punitive paradigm.

And it needs to change.

Actually, owing any fee to a school is reason to hold a diploma, be it high school or college. This is not an FCPS-only rule. Might want to do some research on that before you try to specifically bash FCPS on this issue Mr. Farrell.

Let me suggest that withholding the final transcript is more effective toward recovering a fine or, in this case, restitution and community service.

Colleges require the final high school transcript before completing the class enrollment process for freshman or transfers.

Holding that until it until the fine is paid is more likely to get the desired result without depriving the family and the student of the celebration of the completion of 12 years of work.

Criminal charges may well be in the offing. And the absence of injury will be taken into account when the consequences are imposed.

That for the criminal justice system to meet out. FCPS is not part of the criminal justice system.

At least not yet.

Mr. Farrell, you can stop using the term "absence of injury" since it is now clear that there was an injury. The school SRO was injured by falling down the stairs because of the baby oil. And coming on to this site and placing your opinion is no way to change a system. Attending school board meetings, talking to the board, maybe even running for the board are the real ways to do that. But, then again, you would know that since you are an attorney.

To be fair, Mr. Farrell is a land use lawyer, so I doubt he is trolling for clients. In any case, let's stick to the topic: the prank, the punishment, etc.

Another strawman successfully constructed and impressively knocked down. Congratulations!

No one is excusing these actions. The objection is directed to an excessive punishment that has nothing to do with the offense and everything to do with retribution which, as the yearly recurrence of similar events demonstrate, is no deterrent to future incidents.

Brain science has nothing to do with "psycho-babble," whatever that means.

You betcha, Gordon! As I mentioned earlier,
Farrell was the very first to make a comment.
The second sentence in that comment: "They need attorneys."

Just to be clear: I don't represent any of the 5 boys.

As Mark referenced earlier, I am trying to change a dysfunction FCPS discipline system which this incident typifies.

@ Gordon Blvd - Yes, we know he's a lawyer. and I just noticed he's playing me and others like a fiddle. I just subscribed to the Patch and this very public e-podium...and have to remind myself of the etiquette in fora such as this one should not carry on extended arguments. One needs to keep in mind the old Polish proverb...."if you wrestle with a pig, you won't accomplish anything except end up covered with pig poop and annoy the pig." We have all voiced our opinions but Mr. Farrell seems to think he needs to have the last word and belittle anybody who disagrees with him. I've taken your advoice and will not engage with him further on this issue...and my apologies to the other Patchers for taking their time on an issue that pales in importance to such Herndon issues as transportation, the environment, downtown planning, etc. This is perhaps tragic to the families involved and sad for the HHS student body that these irresponsible kids managed to cloud their ceremony,but not worthy of a community hue and cry...and certainly not of a multitude of Patch commentaries responding to Mr. Farrell's goading.

@Marc Carolla...you finally got it..."What he (JF) does come across here is a "know it all" who can't stand being disagreed with:...and "I just noticed he's playing me and others like a fiddle"...

I for one have given up jousting with him, other than an ocassional "poke"...it leads to endless do loops and a waste of everyone's time as it does not lead to any solution... there is no give on his part to negotiate, so other than perhaps make him feel good and for a laugh once in a while on my part...there si no other benefit....

I congratulate you to reaching the conclusion, but you were/are smarter than me as you figured it out in the course of one thread, not the three or four it took me...cheers.

Mark

I apologize for misconstruing your agreement on the "penal colony" analogy as an agreement that the FCPS discipline system is "dysfuntional." Though I must admit, the nuance is lost on me.

I have no need to "play" anybody. The number of people who agree on the dysfunctionality of the FCPS system is fairly substantial including my friends, Tim Anderson, father of Josh Anderson, and Steve Stuban, father of Nick Stuban.

Whether they agree with the particular punishment meted out in this case, I will leave for them to say.

they will face more severe consequences in the criminal justice system because its public property.

I've seen no confirmation of any injury.

The issue is the appropriateness of the punishment to the offense.

It's too harsh to deprive an accomplishment earned over 12 years for one act of stupidity which is common to people of this age.

You don't seem to understand one simple thing. They are NOT being deprived of their accomplishment of graduating. They still get their diploma. What they are being "deprived" of is their privilege of walking in graduation. It is obvious that you are as blind as these boys. They committed a stupid act. At least one of them is of adult age and should know better. They forfeited their privilege because of one act, yes. But they also forfeited it because they failed to think about what they were doing. One thing that is taught throughout school and should also be taught at home is responsibility and that their are consequences. His parents obviously failed to instill this in him enough.

They are deprived of the opportunity to celebrate their 12 years of accomplishments with their friends which for an adolescent is very severe punishment.

An adolescent's primary imperative, according to brain science, is buildiing alliances with people their own age not making their elders happy.

That's why peer pressure is such a powerful force in their lives but diminishes as they pass 25.

It's also why involuntary transfers from one high school to another is so devastating for high schoolers.

Sequestration from their peers during an landmark event should be reserved for only the most heinous acts.

Thank you. In principle I don't agree with the punishment, but at this point I feel that if they received the opportunity to walk, the whole thing would be about them. What about the rest of us who've done nothing wrong? Shouldn't we be getting the reward of graduating because we haven't screwed up in the past twelve years?

Yes, I agree! That's the main sticking point for me. Our graduation would be a complete joke if they attend. There's soo much they think they can get away with now, but things like this, or cheating in almost all of your AP courses (here's looking at one of the guys I personally know, who was involved in the prank.) Is certainly not something that will fly out there in the real world.

Walking in the ceremonies does not equal graduation. He is getting his diploma in the mail, which is still graduating.

Oh, please, JS. It's all part of the same thing. Sure, they recieve the official piece of paper saying that they completed their course of study, but you want to deprive them of this important right of passage because they did something stupid.

I have two words for the Northern Stick crowd: Lighten up.

Actually, sir, it is not all part of the same thing. There are plenty of kids who choose not to walk in graduation ceremonies. Have they not really graduated? One thing that children are supposed to be taught from a young age is taking responsibility and following the rules. They were told this could be a consequence of their actions. It would have been more inappropriate for FCPS to have an empty threat and allow these kids to get away with something that could have seriously hurt someone.

I think one way this might have been able to be solved after the prank had occurred is if the kids had negotiated a punishment with the principal instead of just trying to fight the punishment they were given. Offer options so that they could make up for their transgression and accept responsibility but still be able to have the privilege (not right) to walk in graduation ceremonies. I think the way they handled it, by going on twitter and getting their minions riled up and trying to cause more of a disruption at the school, speaks volumes about the character of those involved.

When I agree with Convict, I have to rethink my position. ;-)

John S. How do we know that these boys didn't try to negotiate a different punishment and were stonewalled. Ms. Scanlan at the Hearing office, with whom principals consult in these circumstances, tends to be very rigid and unyielding. Mr. Bates may not have been given any room to adjust.

Obviously you have not gone and read their twitter accounts. It is obvious that they didn't try to do anything other than use the excuse that no one was hurt. I beg you look at the evidence before you try to say the "jury" has their mind made up. I looked at the evidence first and came to my own conclusion.

AND he can pick up his cap and gown and take pictures with his parents and other relatives. Hopefully, they will reinforce the "right and wrong" elements of his actions rather than whining with him.

By the way, a "rite of passage" marks a time when a person reaches a new and significant change in his/her life, is something that nearly all societies recognize, and for which they often hold ceremonies. The ceremonies are held to observe a person's entry into a new stage of life... The ceremony is not a "right" -- it is earned, or, in this case--with fair forewarning--forfeited.

Ashkan Naderi continues to enter a new stage of life, hopefully with a better understanding of taking responsibility and suffering consequences for irresponsible acts. Good lesson.
He and his family and friends can still celebrate his achievements with pride and joy, and add a new dimension of maturity and respect/thoughtfulness for others that will serve him well.

So what you're saying is that this isn't his first rodeo. He likes to banter people and try to bash his point home, right or wrong?

Very well put Justine! I once supported him for Reston Assoc., but after this I would be very upset if he was elected as it is clear he can not see another persons take on a given situation. If he had been elected Reston would come to a halt, on any issue he does not share - BUT the majority does. I see a much clearer picture of Mr. Farrell and it is not one I like whatsoever.

Strange. Normally the internet can mask someone's flaws. It appears in Mr. Farrell's case, however, it magnifies them.

Typical guff from Justine. Look, I am an Admiral in the Armchair Navy. I was once a Keyboard Commando... but I promoted myself. When I disagree with someone, I like to harumph and thrash my arms while I exclaim "a YALE man!"...

@scott... i sense that you're a communist. In any case, please know that I was very nice and engaging while I was running for office. I thought that would help get me elected. Sadly, people saw that for the charade it was. I'm happy to report that things are back the way I like them now.

call me Colonel Mustard, it'll be easier for you to say.

@Justine at all....point taken...I found out the hard way on previous threads...that's why I limited my response to JF to just 1 jab (above) conceding the likelihood that he would reply...which he did...I guess that now that Bruce Butler is on his way out to greener pastures, the gentleman needs another new 15 minutes of fame...LOL

@page - help me out here cause I dont see it - what points do he make out that are good? Cause from what I've been told, all the kids at HH know that a school prank could get them barred from commencement and knew that from the get go...........................

@ Page, you make a good point about Farrell, but I will respect that he a lawyer by profession and probably knows more about the field than I do. and @ Gordon Blvd and anyone else who is reading, I go to the school, and I promise you if the boys who pulled the prank were your average, mainstream guys, this sort of protest would not have taken place. The only reason it's riled up so much is because these boys are on the Varsity Basketball team (one of the only good teams at the school.) And although their actions out on the court have proven beneficial to the school (and has thus gained them a lot of support amongst the student body,) their actions in the halls with the baby oil, has not.

I'll put it quite frankly, these boys are the so called "popular." Not saying it's bad, but had they have not been popular, would this protest have taken place and would the event have gained this amount of attention? (Just some food for thought.)

Therefore, it was not so much that the school was unfair or acted morally unjust, it's just that the boys have got a large social network to go to for help. And they definitely knew what the consequences would be if they did this.

@LWE - thank you for serving that "food" :)
because YES!!!! - that does explain a lot...............

and honestly, that's a good thing (as long as the school sticks to it's guns) that at least a VALUABLE life lesson can be taught to the graduates as they venture out into the world, y'know?

Thanks for the advise, Page.

Most of the folks on this thread would be excluded from a jury for cause as arriving at the issue with a mind already made up.

I'm writing for a different "jury."

@Farrell I'm just curious, completely aside from this argument, but how are people chosen as candidates for a jury? How can an attorney find out if someone has a bias about something or not? Just curious as to how that works.

@Not - well, if they knew the risks, they should "Senior Up" and take the punishment. To be honest, they look like pathetic losers with all the crybaby whining I keep hearing:
"Oh, we got caught being little fools but we shouldnt be punished for it wah wah wah"
These guys are making the students of HH out to look like complete pussycats (minus the cat LoLz) by whining like this. They need to just shut up, not go to commencement, and STILL do community service and maybe a weekend or two in the pokey to hammer the point home that you dont do pranks that can get ppl hurt or killed in the future.............

GB - Though I appreciate your use of the word "pokey", I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the punishment. They are becoming young adults, not adults, young adults. Making them assist someone in a physical therapy session after a hip replacement, or making them assist nurses with cleaning patients in comas from skull fractures, hell make them work at Walter Reed for a month and thank the soldiers for allowing them the freedom to make a dumb mistake. Those images can impact and help educate someone far more then simply not letting them walk across a stage.

How they have handled themselves since the incident is a discussion best left for another thread.

Gordon

That's the point. They don't forsee the risk of serious injury to others. When they think about what happens after the baby oil is applied, they tend to get stuck on how funny people will look when they fall down.

That next thought (someone could die) comes automatically to adults over 25 but not to adolescent boys. That's why risk taking is so endemic at this age. "I could die," doesn't occur to them or, if it does, it's readily dismissed.

JF - leave it be for all that is holy! Enough you are repeating yourself over and over and doing so is distracting from the topic. You made your point, most are not buying it so let it go. Furthermore have you ever worked in a classroom. Armchair quarterback is what I see with no first hand experience. The students had received fair warning of consequences and they choose other...period....now pay the price is that not what laws and society dictates. I like the idea of them spending a day with me putting people back together because of stupidity. FYI Walter Reed is no more we are now BRAC.

Scott - I called it Walter Reed not Mr. Farrell. Also, Mr. Farrell has never said they should not be punished, but is arguing the type of punishment and community service was one of his suggestions for an alternative (i.e. helping you put people back together). Furthermore, you don't have to read his responses, just like other's don't have to respond when he posts.

THANK YOU Susan Sather!
Your daughter has learned well...as young kids do, about common courtesies, caring and obvious consequences.
They learn when taught. Often, they are even smarter than we think, until they outsmart themselves.
The social "hero status" and perhaps a sense of entitlement may have colored this situation a lot, too.
Kudos to the young adults who have posted here, and to the Principal who is sticking with his responsibility to ALL in the school.

most Hornets are good kids...........at least from my perspective. And I'd bet most of the kids that are generating the "free the boys" feedback are just doing it for a goof and to "strike at the man", so to speak.........................

So these 5 boys did these acts because they have bad parents?

Thank you, Phillies Fan, for your articulate and informed input.

but I read stuff... on internet. I'm an Armchair Admiral. I say it. It is true.

Happy to review any peer reviewed papers that take a view different than what I have described here. What I've read has conveyed that there is a consensus within the professions on the points I've made.

Extra thanks . . . from many of us, for your timely and well-stated professional perspective on a topic you know so well.
Can't help but add one common-sense thought. You state: "Some children are impulsive, others are overly-controlled." As an old-timer, I'd like to add, from observations: "...and these traits may persist throughout their lives".
Thanks again :-)

The high school and FCPS are not commenting about student discipline because of privacy issues. Completely understandable. If you want to know what happened fully, you can always go to the appeals hearing for one of the students at the school board office.

Those hearings are not open to the public.

Until last year parents were allowed to have a transcript of what was said.

The hearings could be hideous as up to 17 FCPS employees berated the child and the parents for some pretty trivial offenses.

(And, no, I don't consider the baby oil trivial.)

I always forget that snark doesn't come across very well over the internet. I know that they are not public. It was a joke. My point is that the only way we will know both sides of the story is listen to what the school said up until now, listen to the violators, then find the truth somewhere in the middle.

Again, they are very lucky IF no one got hurt. IF someone did get hurt, then they will probably have heavier consequences to pay.

I have noticed that they have stopped using the "no one got hurt" excuse in their tweets, which may or may not be an indication of some new development.

I wish these kids would just take the lesson from this that there are consequences of their actions. If they have not learned that by now, they may never learn it.

This has been rumored on the boards, but why hasn't this been reported in the stories? Is there true confirmation of injuries, because that would make this even more serious.

DIDI I JUST READ THAT!?!?!?!
"Paris Morton ‏@68AndI0U1
I would probably be in jail if our prank was as successful as we wanted it to be."

and with that, I COMPLETELY change my mind about not having them spend a cpl weekends in the pokey.........

thanks for the research, John S. Yeah, that right there makes it a completely different story cause a prank is a prank, sure. But if you are intentionally trying to hurt someone.......................well that's Columbinish. No joke at all.

@Page, this isnt about objectivity. Children could have gotten SERIOUSLY hurt maybe someone killed. I was too stupid to put two and two together before, but I get it now. Plan was to oil the stairs then pull the alarm to have a bunch off ppl fall down the stairs. Thats the reason why the thugs are so animate about not having the fire alarm be part of the plan.
And the thought that ANYONE regardless of age could even think to do something like that pisses me off beyond comprehension. ......and for a ****ing JOKE!?!!?!?

Sadly Gordon, that is exactly what you read. It is pretty sad to think that these guys had time to plan it out and still thought it was a good idea. And they also still thought they could get their minions to get them out of the hole they dug for themselves.

Respect and civility are qualities that are normally taught at home, not at school. That is unless you happen to go to a school with a JROTC program.

It's the teachers and the parents working together that teach civility and responsibility.

The dysfuntionality of the FCPS discipline system is not about the teachers. They actually supported the changes proposed by School Board members Schultz and McLaughlin last Thursday.

All of the resistance to an educational, restorative and therapeutic discipline process is centered among a fraction of the FCPS high school principals, the Director of the FCPS hearing office, Ms. Scanlan, and Superintendent Jack Dale.

There are better models around for handling these issues: Montgomery County Maryland and Boston, Ma to name just 2.

The near mutiny of some high school principals at last Thursday's School Board meeting shut down that dialog.

I am proud of the approximately 594 Herndon students who learned sufficient respect and civility to be honored at their graduation ceremony today. Congratulations!

I take responsibility as a Parent to teach my children respect and civility; I do not see that as a public school responsibility. The teachers are doing the best they can in a environment that is becoming less civilized every year.

Parents need to step up to the plate and teach humanity and the schools the ever expanding three R's.

Scott and Laurie, completely agree. Those who were taught respect and civility at home, by their parents, are the ones to be commended today. Today is not a day to bash the school system, no matter what you think of it. It is also not a day for parents to try to push off responsibility to the school system for not teaching some things that need to be taught at home. Too many parents try to have the TV or internet baby sit their kids and don't teach core responsibilities at home. Change for discipline should being at home, not at school or with the school board.

Skip - blame it on the teachers? You state "The mere fact that this happened at this school implicates the teachers that have not raised the bar to prepare the students for graduation and life that follows" Do you have any empiracal evidence of this? This incident involved 5 out of hundreds of students which implies that a very small minority at this school failed to learn civic responsibility. Would you care to share any studies - evidence -that show that the even a simple majority of FCPS students are ill-prepared for life after graduation? Blaming this incident on unsubstantiated faults of dedicated and hard-working teachers is malicious personal opinion bordering on calumny. You are entitled to your opinion but need to be called to task if you have no peer reviewed facts to base it on while accusing teachers of "laziness, incompetence and ignorance." The twitter and commentary suggest these are kids who didn't learn their lessons; ignored the rules; and engaged in premeditated reckless behavior.. My experience as a FCPS parent was that kids got their share of preparation for life after graduation - and yes these qualities are indirectly also genetically acquired from parents who should teach their kids proper civic and social behavior. As for law enforcement and courts - this sanction was an internal school matter but all school districts routinely press charges for vandalism and things like reckless endangerment. These kids made themselves into statistics.

SPOT ON GORDON! I read Ashkan tweets today as he say home forbidden to attend the ceremony. His tweets are full of vulgarity and now I see him as nothing more then a punk! His tweet was to the effect: "Now everyone can shut the f*ck up about graduation".

My Kid would be in the witness to mobile device destroyed in the garbage disposal and a very long hard summer working at a homeless shelter till Fall.

Morgan - Congratulations. Your wife's teaching is appreciated by many of us.. It is great she is able to do so in your alma mater.