This 8 Feb meeting was advertised as a work session between the Town Council and Planning Commission. So, why were representatives of the Herndon Foundation for the Cultural Arts (HFCA) able to offer comments?
There has NEVER been an official poll/survey/referendum of town taxpayers to show support for using taxpayer funds to build an arts center. Unofficial polls have shown just the opposite. Yet, somehow the town has managed to spend over $2 million in the past decade of taxpayer funds on land, studies, designs, etc.. Even the latest "Downtown Master Plan" was flawed by having the "arts center" included in the RFP without ever conducting a poll of taxpayers to determine true interest.
Before agreeing to using taxpayer-owned land and further town funds for infrastructure changes to build an arts center, shouldn't someone in town government provide a realistic estimate of what additional expenses taxpayers will be expected to assume and the likely impact on property tax rates? At that point, then conduct an official town-wide poll to determine if the majority of taxpayers (not just the HFCA) are interested in seeing their property tax rates increase for infrastructure and land etc to support this "arts center"?
Just a thought!

To clarify

There has never been discussion nor will be any discussion of use of taxpayer monies to fund the construction of an arts center - that is not in the Plan or proposal from the non profit art group. I can assure you that the language in the proposal does not, nor will I personally ever support "taxpayer funds to build an art center".

The proposal includes the requirement that the non profit raise 100% of the funding required to build their portion of a mixed use art center/arts related commercial building. The Town will not be contributing any portion.

The Mayor chairs all work sessions and allowed questions to be directed to members of the Foundation who were present at this work session, which is why representatives were able to offer comment. They responded that the intent was not to even have a standalone building but to have a professional developer build a building that would include an arts center as part of it. That developer and the non profit would have to pay their fair share of public infrastructure, such as public shared parking. I believe the Town currently charges a 60%/40% split on public shared parking costs with purchasers, all purchasers.

I think it's quite clear that the non profit will have to fully fund 100% of the construction of the art center function within a larger building and their share of the public shared parking. The Town's would receive funding from the land via rent or sale to the developer and/or the non profit.

I am just wondering if the Town Council plans on putting speed humps or deterrents on the 2-lane portion of Dranesville Road? This would prevent situations like a speeding car knocking over the light post and fire hydrant in front of my house, or a speeding van running through my living room, not to mention the sound of school buses, metro buses, trucks, vans and cars barreling down the road at least 40-60 mph (I've witnessed cars racing each other down this street) at all hours of the day and night (it's like living off I95).

It would be great to see this improvement before someone is killed on the sidewalk or crossing the street. There aren't even flashing School zone signs on Dranesville - does the town council not care about the safety of its residents, especially school children?

Just my two cents on where I'd like to see town/tax payer dollars go FIRST...

Heather, please send your request into the Town Council and Town Manager - we aren't always aware of traffic issues until someone complains! We are currently looking at various traffic studies in town as well as what traffic calming projects may or may not be included in the upcoming budget. A group of Missouri Avenue residents recently submitted a signed petition for traffic analysis and traffic calming measures on their street and that's now being looked at.
I look forward to hearing from you on this matter so the Town can take steps at improving street safety for your neighborhood.

Thank you Grace, I would have gone that route but the http://www.herndon-va.gov/ has been down all morning...

Grace — thank you so much for answering these questions that have come up! So glad you keep an eye on Patch.

Heather — I think there might be a traffic circle/roundabout going in at the intersection of Park and Dranesville this summer. I'm pretty sure it's part of the town's Capital Improvement Program. I know a lot of people complain about traffic circles, but when Maryland put in the traffic circle on Hwy 15 and took out a stop light it actually helped quite a bit (in my opinion). I can now get through that intersection quickly (yet slowly) without having to ever wait at a stop light.
http://herndon.patch.com/articles/town-officials-receive-update-on-capital-improvement-program

"I can assure you that the language in the proposal does not, nor will I personally ever support "taxpayer funds to build an art center".

Councilwoman Wolf, taxpayer funds are already being used to fund the art center. Who purchased the land on which Art Space currently sits? Who's taxes paid for the land that the Foundation wants to build on?

“Councilwoman Lisa Merkel asked if it would be possible for a developer to come in and assist the Herndon Foundation for the Cultural Arts in building a facility if one stepped forward. Town Manager Art Anselene said there could be language written into the plan to allow for that.”

I echo Mr. Davis' concern re: who pays for this developer and why does this need to be written into the plan?

Leslie, that still does not explain why the town taxpayers, who footed the 1.3 million dollar bill for the land acquisition, should be penalized financially to support Art Space.

What the council "meant" is a moot issue. What the council "says" and "does" is what the taxpayers of Herndon have to rely on to form informed decisions re: Parcel E in the Downtown Master Plan.

I have a few questions in to the Town Mgr & Town Atty as there is currently an MOU that obligates the Town til 2014 and the point may be moot. This was signed by ordinance by the 2004 Council. I will post more when I hear back but essentially it obligates both parties to "the establishment of a community cultural arts center on Town owned land at or near 750 Center Street, Herndon, VA, a goal that both parties share." Other obligations exist in the MOU until 12/31/2014.

Additionally I believe that the Town is now underwater on this property and would realize a real financial loss on the sale of the Block E parcels at this time. Also, to date there have been no serious offers to purchase these parcels in the 8 or so years the Town has owned them. At the end of the 5 year window, the Town and taxpayers will be made whole one way or the other.
Either the art/mixed use building will be ready to contribute to the Town's coffer or the land will be put on the market and hopefully the market will have recovered enough for the Town to recoup 100% its investment. I am not seeing a penalty other than if the Town tried to sell the property now and incur a loss.

Lastly, this is part of the Herndon 2030 Vision, and has been part of the Town's vision for the last decade or so, validated by the last several Town Councils. I am not so quick to abandon what is the right thing to do for the Town's long term for what is fire-sale pricing and a fiscal loss on the property.

Any non-necessary borrowing of millions of dollars should be placed on a ballot vote to determine whether it should be done. As a matter of fact, this is written into Virginia's Constitution. The processes that have been used to bypass this common sense requirement are very dubious, in my view. Necessary infrastructure is one thing; expensive, discretionary wishlists are something else.

I was wondering whether the 2004 art center MOU was still effective. I guess it is. This demonstrates that it is wrong for the discretionary spending decisions of one Council that is elected for only two years, to carelessly lock the town into agreements and debt for a decade or longer.

The arts are a good thing. I can live with Herndon providing the millions that it did. However, we can't just blithely run the town in to more millions of dollars of unnecessary debt, especially at this time. The internet bubble is over, and the real-estate bubble is over, and hard times appear to be on the way.

We have a different Council, we have a changing geography because of the new rail line, and we have a much less rosy economic outlook for the region and the nation. Locally, the old downtown will become less and less the center of activity, with the advent of the rail station area that seems to have been forgotten from 2002 until recently. It's time to really look at the situation, and the sooner we get the town aligned with the future, the better.

"The sooner we get the town aligned with the future, the better." Bob, agreed! If anyone came to the Town today with a request to bond out for $1MM+ for the purchase of land for an art center, I'd unequivocably say no. The Town simply can not afford to borrow lots of money that it has little opportunity of recouping or that places the taxpayers in a risky or precarious position. The Town can choose to make a strategic investment if the risk to the Town and taxpayers is low but we shouldn't be looking to do that very often or for lots of money.

I was happy to see the Planning Commission and staff present opportunities to reduce the Town's infrastructure gap on the blocks most likely to be redeveloped in the near term! Development and redevelopment will never be free and we should expect to pay a reasonable amount over a long period of time, with reasonable expectations of how those investments are to be funded.

Regarding Block E, the reality is that the Town bought the land a while ago, the Town is underwater on the land, the Town is obligated to work with the HFCA until 2014 towards the creation of an art center on or near that site, the land had not appreciated, there have been no offers to purchase it. The outlook isn't that rosy for the next few years. May as well try to gain an art center thru the private sector and do the Town some good. There is little to no opportunity cost to do so at this time and significant upside potential.

" nor will I personally ever support "taxpayer funds to build an art center".

Councilwoman Wolf, the above quote is from a post your entered in this discussion early this morning.

This is a quote from your new post on this topic

"Lastly, this is part of the Herndon 2030 Vision, and has been part of the Town's vision for the last decade or so, validated by the last several Town Councils. I am not so quick to abandon what is the right thing to do for the Town's long term for what is fire-sale pricing and a fiscal loss on the property."

Are you rescinding your comment from this morning that you would not support using taxpayer funds for the Art Center?

Nothing was mentioned in any of my posts re: the sale of lots in Parcel E, but I do believe that developers might be more interested in mixed use development of this parcel were it not encumbered by a requirement for a cultural community arts center.

The financial climate today is vastly different from that of 2004, which was during the height of the Herndon real estate boom. Thank you for taking the time to research the use of this parcel.

Hi Ruth,
No I expect that the money the prior Council spent on acquiring the land on Block E to be fully repaid and the Town & taxpayers to be made whole. It might take a few years to get all of the funds back but I expect that to occur - if I didn't think we had a chance of getting our money back, I would advocate we cut bait and recoup what we can on Block E. It's easy for me to say since I wasn't on the council that spent the money, but I don't think I would've been too keen on spending that amount of money in the first place. I can't undo what's been done but moving forward, I continue with my position of no taxpayer money for the building of an art center.

If we could recoup all of that money today or had viable interest by a developer, I would be significantly less interested in reserving Block E for that use and instead might be persuaded to advocate for the sale or unencumbered use of Block E and movement of the proposed art center to a different lot in the Town.

However, that is not the case now or for the foreseeable future and I am not willing to lose any taxpayer money on the sale or rent of Block E at this time - I am researching what the Town might get for 'market rate' and if it's enough to even cover the funding obligation - I'm not even sure we'd get our money back on rent. I think time boxing the option the Town gives to the Foundation is a reasonable time where the Town will not do any better anyway.

Hi Councilwoman Wolf. You are missing my point. This parcel may be more inviting to developers without the requirement for the inclusion of an art center. I am not advocating the sale of the property at this time. I am advocating that no conditions for an art center be put on the use of the property in the Downtown Master Plan. True that the current plan states that the art center can be removed from the plan if a developer comes forward with a plan that does not include it, but that would still be viewed as a deterrent to prospective developers.

Ruth, we may not be able to exclude reserving the use of 750 Center Street for an art center in the Downtown Master Plan based on the MOU until 2014- that is what I've asked the TM to look into and that was my point.

Of course, if we didn't have any restrictions on use of that block or any other block in the downtown, all developers would be more interested. But to achieve the Town's long term goals & vision, the plan conditions usage in almost every block: parts of block D for parking, Block F for multi-family as opposed to single family or townhouse, even though those products are currently more lucrative to the Town, Block E for 5 years for arts/arts related mixed use. The plan also requires that for most blocks in the core downtown loop, that the first floor all be reserved for retail use with residential and office above them. Any and all of these restrictions could conceivably be viewed as deterrents to prospective developers for all blocks. Should a viable option appear, it can always be evaluated then.

Again, we don't fund Art Space now and I don't favor funding the building of an arts center. The Town does plenty for the arts and all of the non profits/civics that ably serve our community. I have demonstrated this belief and continue to advocate for reduced spending in non essential areas, to the point of token funding for our non profits and only for those that are able to operate in a fiscally responsible manner.

We are thinking that the art center property isn't going anywhere in five years, so let's not panic-spend for the rest of this work either. We apply grants and things as they become available, I see that happening in the FY2012 budget. Can we keep doing that, and keep town borrowing to a minimum?

I did a quick look at undergrounding, and $5.5 million seems very high to me. I saw numbers like $1.6 million per mile for electric undergrounding. How many miles of services are we actually placing underground, anyway? Of course, we plan to bury not only electric power lines, but also telephone and cable - but $5.5 million still seems high. Didn't Verizon already put fiber underground? I remember colorful tubes and spools of stuff going down there years ago.

I really don't see Elden Street supporting huge increases in traffic. If we need a parking garage, I think a smaller one that fits into the existing town property is probably enough, and probably all that that poor Elden Street can support.

By the way, the ten year horizon for the old art center MOU is a good example of why these agreements should have some milestone requirements written into them. In over six years, only about $66,000 was collected! Why should the town have to wait ten years before pulling the plug on that? The town should reserve the right to revoke the agreement if the fundraising clearly isn't happening.

Bob, I believe the current thinking for the parking is to change to the smaller parking deck located solely on Town owned parcels in Block D, reducing that infrastructure costs by a few MM. The undergrounding is very expensive and I believe reflects undergrounding across all the blocks - we definitely need to take another look at how much we want and are willing to pay for and where it may make sense to leave a few poles up. As Councilmember Tirrell suggested, in the end, it may be a 'nice to have' and not a 'must have'.

Also, should language reserving Block E for 5 years for arts center/arts related mixed use be approved, I believe there is significant interest in conditioning the progress made by the Foundation over that 5 year period, with a much stronger 'out' clause for the Town should milestones be missed. Yes, we do learn from the past!

Again, lots of moving parts, lower dollar costs seem likely based on blocks that are realistically going to redevelop in the near term (that being the next decade or so). Planning Commissioner East made the observation that in the 28+years he's been in Herndon, we've seen about 5-6 buildings go up in the Downtown, so it's not like the Town will be on the hook all at once for a lot of spending. I too am keen on keeping borrowing at a minimum and seeking as much grant, state, federal, private monies as possible. I do want an art center but I don't want to nor will pay for one! Lastly, I expect any plan adopted to be revised.

Grace, you are a good sport, and the only council member who has bothered to take part in this discussion. Bravo. Thank you! You care enough to engage in debate. I wish your fellow council members would join in as well. This is a very important issue to many of us in the Town.

"By the way, the ten year horizon for the old art center MOU is a good example of why these agreements should have some milestone requirements written into them. In over six years, only about $66,000 was collected! Why should the town have to wait ten years before pulling the plug on that? The town should reserve the right to revoke the agreement if the fundraising clearly isn't happening."

Bob, I agree completely, but I do believe there is a provision in the Downtown Master Plan to remove the Art Space option if a more viable option comes along. Am I reading that correctly, Grace?

Hi John, I don't think I can post a file on Patch but I am happy to email you the MOU and the minutes from the meeting in 2004 when it was approved. We all got a copy of it again today, based on a follow up request from Tuesday's joint meeting. A quick reading of it does not show conditions for the Town to bow out or make changes but again, I've asked the TM and TA for their thoughts on the matter. The public hearing to approve the ordinance for the MOU occurred Oct 12, 2004, with Councilmember Husch making the motion to approve, with Councilmember Bruce seconding. The vote was 5 (Bruce, Husch, Reece, Smith, O'Reilly):1 (Null) to approve, with one member, Councilmember Mitchell absent. At the time, Mr. Tirrell was the Planning Commissioner and submitted a letter requesting that "the proposed art center be funded through private means." That is a position I and I believe the entire rest of Council continue to support!

Leslie, will do!

Remarkably, there seems to be more informative and productive interaction here than I see in many official meetings. I also salute you, Grace, for participating this way. I don't always agree with you, but you are making these big issues known to the public in a place where people go for news. Bravo!

It IS great to have Patch for discussions.
It would also help if people would read actual Agenda items on the Town website. Proposed downtown plan: http://www.herndon-va.gov/Weblink7/DocView.aspx?id=19248&dbid=0. I find it works best to to make a PDF file (click on the Adobe symbol). That, plus reviewing drawings and maps, answers many questions, though there are always related issues.

Excerpt: “A.1.a. Retain Block E for a long-term land lease to a non-profit entity for the development of an arts/associated uses public art center and commercial facility with flexible leased spaces for arts-related commercial uses. This facility is intended to be developed as a
partnership of non-profit and for-profit entities and it is intended that ground lease income will be provided to the town. The non-profit sponsors will seek grants and private funding sources to address the infrastructure gap identified…and to bring a facility into development or at minimum final engineering design by the end of calendar year 2015. In the event that a facility is not funded and designed by the end of...2015, the Town Council shall re-evaluate the land use for Block E… “

PLEASE READ THAT THE BLOCK IS "ARTS/ASSOCIATED USES…COMMERCIAL FACILITY”

It is a waste of Town assets to sell devalued land now, though the Town Manager might like to help fund further Community Center space. IMHO, and most important--it is counterproductive to a DOWNTOWN ACTIVITY CORE to stuff it with apartments.

"Excerpt: “A.1.a. Retain Block E for a long-term land lease to a non-profit entity for the development of an arts/associated uses public art center and commercial facility with flexible leased spaces for arts-related commercial uses. This facility is intended to be developed as a
partnership of non-profit and for-profit entities and it is intended that ground lease income will be provided to the town. The non-profit sponsors will seek grants and private funding sources to address the infrastructure gap identified…and to bring a facility into development or at minimum final engineering design by the end of calendar year 2015. In the event that a facility is not funded and designed by the end of...2015, the Town Council shall re-evaluate the land use for Block E… “
PLEASE READ THAT THE BLOCK IS "ARTS/ASSOCIATED USES…COMMERCIAL FACILITY”

The Downtown Master Plan will be nothing more than a road map anyway. It will change many times as the needs of the town change. Keep in mind that the town need not sell that parcel in order for it to be developed into mixed used. Just as the town need not sell the land to have an art entity built on it. That being said whoever is using it does need to pay commercial rates to the town for its use.

The basic question is: Have the needs of the town changed since 2004?

"The City of Fairfax just opened a new 12,000 sq. foot community cultural arts center, funded by a private donation of $5MM. "

Grace, you are right, but will taxpayers in the end be paying for this facility to keep it open, staffed and running? The answer to that is probably yes. This is very short term thinking.

Hi Grace, you are right that the facility we are discussing is owned and operated by Fairfax City. Ultimately the residents of Fairfax City will have to put some taxpayer money into this cultural art center. You need to bear in mind that even large museums not only rely on grants, but taxpayer dollars for funding. The Corcoran Gallery of Art ran at a deficit for many years even though it is the recipient of grants and numerous private donations. The Phillips Collections has fared somewhat better over the past decade, but that is rare in an art center, gallery or museum.

Many of the parks in Fairfax County have a Friends program to raise funds for the parks. I know of The Friends of Greenspring Farm Park and the Friends of Mason District Park, but even so they are not able to raise the funds necessary to maintain these parks solely on donations. Taxpayer dollars are still needed.

We are beginning to digress from initial subject of this debate. Art Space and the Downtown Master Plan. I for one would like to see the current financials for The Foundation For The Cultural Arts. I believe that the Foundation should make their financial statement as a non-profit available to the taxpayers of Herndon in order to demonstrate their financial ability to sustain Art Space without taxpayer assistance in the near and distant future, as well as, a demonstration of good faith.

Ran out of space!

Lastly, I enjoy the arts but make no mistake, in the end I am a business-woman - my favorite color is green and being in the black! A non profit still must be a successful business, not one that operates on handouts and bailouts, hopes and prayers for pennies from heaven.

If the value proposition of an arts center doesn't make financial sense, I simply will not support it. The arts have always flourished via private patronage and not large scale public support. That is a precedent set down through the centuries, and across all cultures. Token public support is acceptable but note the words 'token funding'.

Significant self funding or private patronage is the only way open for many non profits in general and the arts in particular.

With that I hope you will all remember to come buy your beer from the Council for the Arts of Herndon's beer booth at the Herndon Festival!:)

Hi Grace! I agree with you on many points, but as an elected member of the Town Council, elected to serve the best interests of the town, would you agree to ask the Foundation For The Cultural Arts to make public their tax filings for the past three years as a show of good faith to the town taxpayers before the Council takes up the Downtown Master Plan at next week's public session? I realize that this is very short notice. You could, as a remedy to this lack of notice, defer the discussion on the Town Master Plan to a future public session so that the council as well as the town residents and taxpayers would have an opportunity to review the Foundation's financial submissions. The Foundation is a very new and yet to be proven entity.

As a businesswoman you can surely see the benefit to having good financial information to rely on prior to taking a vote on something as important to the town as the Downtown Master Plan.

Hi Ruth, if I am remembering correctly, any and every 501(c) must make their financials (income statement, balance sheet and taxes) available to anyone at request, I know at the Art Council we have our Form 990 (the non profit version of the IRS tax forms) available on request. I'll email Robin Carroll to inquire. The Town also may have received their Form 990 from last year - I know any of the non profits who apply for a town grant must make that available as part of their grant application. If so, that should be immediately and cheaply FOIAble as well. Lemme see what I hear back.

My understanding is that non-profits have to have their financial data available for anyone who asks to see them. You can probably go to ArtSpace this weekend and ask to look at them.

PROBLEM: The ENTIRE Downtown core area should be getting attention—density, traffic pattern suggested, excessive residential (IMHO), utilities management, parking, need for internal Town public transit, etc. So why is ALL the discussion about Block E and ArtSpace?
I am not an economist, but common sense, creative endeavor, and results in terms of participation count and these things are evident in the HFCA proposal and the PC recommendation for Block E.

RE HFCA’s financials: including that block in the Downtown Plan *enables* them to obtain investment and developer interest for the whole block. They will do it or they won’t – but they deserve a chance to contribute that unique element to a successful downtown.

It would be a shame to kill that potential . . . like several proposals over the years have been lost. We surely don’t really want to go back to rutted mudholes and a noisy stinking concrete plant do we?

An “alternative site” for arts center/activities discussed at the recent meeting serves no purpose other than to intentionally kill investment potential and ensure failure of a project that could have high cultural and economic benefit to Herndon. Why would anyone who really cares about Herndon’s downtown becoming a more vital and viable destination *want* to do that?

Localities have different goals and priorities. Fairfax City’s new Sherwood Community Center, in the P&R Dept, will emphasize arts/cultural uses as a condition of the $5 mil donation. 2 full-time City employees will staff. Of course they have volunteers. Most public arts-nature-library-health care-recreational-youth facilities/activities rely on a volunteer workforce. A spirit of community develops around interests and builds shared community experiences. That is positive.

Herndon has enjoyed strong and sustained support for arts activities for the past 20+ years. Urbanization increases potential success of this type of venture and contributes to a unique identity for the small downtown core area. This could be a special place in this geographic area, at an appropriate scale, drawing arts activities and commercial entities without competing in the “regional retail or office” markets.

The following statement was in the Downtown Plan “streetsense” analysis: “Some of the retail that does not perform or work well should be weeded out. …determine which…are superfluous… identify opportunities for co-tenancy and synergy. These efforts will become the basis for a branding and placemaking strategy…”
Good point. The multifunctional ArtSpace and associated commercial uses proposed by the Herndon Foundation for the Cultural Arts for Block E epitomizes a placemaking element, as well as distributing human activity throughout both day and evening hours.

A few points of emphasis: (some of which have already been mentioned):

1. The Foundation for the Cultural Arts will build the arts center using its own money. Town money will not pay for it.
2. The Foundation will engage in a land-lease with the town during the 5 year period, in which the Town will be collecting money for the land that the Foundation is sitting on.
3. The proposed arts center is not just a gallery. The whole arts center vision also includes things like commercial arts space, shops and a café. This will bring commercial tax revenue into the town.
4. Such development of an arts center can help spur other development in town. It will also help continue the branding of Herndon as an arts town, adding the attractiveness we have already built with Friday Night Live the various festivals.
5. The concept of an arts center is town is not new news. It has been around for decades. There have been a multitude of hearings, town meetings, and consultant public meetings about this. Having an arts center in town (whether it be on Block E or another block) has long been supported by most of the public who have participated in these meetings/hearings, current and previous councils, the consultants, the Planning Commission, and the downtown master plan task force. An arts center has been part of the Town’s comprehensive plan for a long time, and is also supported in Fairfax County’s comp plan.

Continued on the next comment space.....

.....contiuned from previous page.......

6. The townspeople have never supported the idea of having dense residential units (such as apartments) on Block E, right next to our town green, although they do support such density in places like the Pines Shopping Center.
7. There are no developers waiting in the wings to develop Block E. Why should we say no to the Foundation (who is ready and waiting with a plan), for fear that we might hypothetically have a developer approach the town in the near future. We are only talking about 5 years or less to give the Foundation a chance. In the last few years the town has been unsuccessful at completing the proposed Diamond Hotel, the Clark downtown proposal, the Norton Scott downtown proposal and the JPI proposal. Herndon has not developed a good reputation with developers. And yet we have our own very successful home-town Foundation, ready with a plan, begging the town to let them bring something exciting to town. Why not let them help us?

HFCA has been trying to raise funds to build an “arts center” since 2003, perhaps earlier. According to an earlier Patch report, they only have $66,000 on the books. All the previous versions of an “arts center” (Webb Management’s 2000 version would have cost $18-27 million, Wilson-Butler-Lodge/AMC’s 2003 version would have cost $10-12 million) would have placed large tax burdens on the Town. And that doesn’t mention the continuing annual operating deficits projected to be in the hundreds of thousands per year. No projection I have seen has shown a profit or even “break even” position in operating expenses for an arts center.
Now, we are being told that HFCA will “will build the arts center using its own money. Town money will not pay for it.” If you re-read Councilwoman Wolf’s description of the proposal, she said “The proposal includes the requirement that the non profit raise 100% of the funding required to build their portion of a mixed use art center/arts related commercial building.” The key words are “their portion of a mixed use” building. So, who pays for the rest of the building to be constructed and all the infrastructure changes needed to accommodate it? Who pays if there are annual operating deficits?
(Continued)

(continued from above)
Proponents of this “arts center” keep forgetting that taxpayers funded this land to the tune of $1.5 million. That doesn’t include the “studies”, “site plans”, and “designs” taxpayers funded which aren’t even applicable to the current proposal . While the current value of the land may be less than we paid in 2003, it’s value in a sale would probably be higher IF it wasn’t encumbered by a requirement to construct a building that includes an “arts center”.
More importantly, despite the implications that this will somehow revitalize the downtownor spur new development, we need to keep in mind that we’re not talking about a “Wolf Trap” or “Kennedy Center” that would draw huge crowds with big-name entertainers. The RFP for the latest Downtown Master Plan included a 2006 JPI Draft Arts Center Requirements program for a 250-seat theater. I don’t know what size theater eventually made it into the proposal, but I believe the High School has a bigger theater. So, why continue to push for this restriction on the land, rather than a movie theater, or bowling alley, or some other commercially viable enterprise?
While I’m not opposed to the HFCA or any other art-related groups purchasing the land and building whatever they want, I just don’t believe that Town taxpayers need to be kept on the hook any longer.

The commercial/retail/cafe spaces help make this project commercially viable. That’s all part of the plan.

I think many of us are agreeing about basic concepts, but are just saying it in different ways. No one is saying that the taxpayers should get strapped. We all agree with that. And what is the town getting for that land now? Nothing.

The bottom line for me is that this project would be a very positive thing for the town and we can get it done. I feel as though many positive projects in Town never come to fruition because some naysayers (often with incomplete or misinformation) attempt to squash them, often due to fear of financing. That is not to say that peoples’ questions and concerns aren’t valid. But I believe that any misgivings that people may have about this project would be eased if they would simply to stop by ArtSpace and talk to a member of the Foundation board. Chatting on the Patch is too inadequate to get a full understanding of the proposed project and its budgetary considerations.

People with vision got the Municipal Center, the Library and the Community Center built, and we all recognize now how much of an asset they are to Herndon. Now we have an opportunity to have an arts block in Herndon, a real coup for the town, if we could just all come together to help it happen.

If trying to hold down excessive frivolous spending by Town government means I’m a “naysayer”, then I’ll wear the label proudly. At least I’m not insisting that everyone else in my community must pay for my interests or hobbies regardless of cost. The Town is getting nothing for that land now because it was reserved for the arts. Holding it another 5 years for that purpose won’t guarantee a return on investment to the Town. In fact, there is reason to believe otherwise. The HFCA has only limited fundraising results ($66,000) to show after 6 years and no projection of costs in previous studies that I have seen has ever shown profitability for an “arts center”. While this latest proposal supposedly contains commercial/retail/cafe spaces ventures that might make it commercially viable, I wonder if they are sufficient to offset the negative profitability of the “art space”. Has anyone provided independently derived estimates to support that contention?”
While I accept councilwoman Wolf’s assurances that no further Town funds will be used for this latest proposal, and that taxpayers will recoup their expenses for the land, I remain wary that somehow there’s another shoe ready to drop somewhere. Guess that’s just my “naysayer” instinct showing!
Let’s just sell the land to a commercial developer without restriction and let them determine the most commercially viable option.

I find the idea of selling the land to a commercial developer without restriction, simply for its commercial viability, to be totally unacceptable. If all we are worried about is how much money we can make off of that piece of land, then sure, that’s what we should do. That could easily be done by putting a huge apartment/condo complex there.

But that is obviously not realistic. The people of Herndon have said over and over again that they don’t want downtown Herndon to be hyper-dense, looking like Reston Town Center. There is no way the people of Herndon would allow a 10-12 story residential building to sit right next to the W&OD trail, looming over our town green. What the majority of the townspeople have always said is that they want our downtown to be a walkable, pedestrian-friendly downtown, with restaurants, shops, entertainment and arts.

I believe we should stop looking at our downtown as the economic engine of Herndon. Instead, the downtown is the “people center” of town, where we all gather for social events to eat, shop, learn, play and sing. The real economic engines of Herndon will be places like Worldgate and the proposed Metrorail development.

Thanks everyone for your information of how to obtain the financials for the Foundation For The Cultural Art. I was able to obtain that yesterday via another council member.

Having owned a commercial art gallery and worked for a small non-profit museum, I can tell from looking at their financial information that this group cannot sustain Art Space in the long run. I also know from working with a small museum that even if the money is raised to build what is planned there is no way to assure the town or council members or the taxpayers in this town that they can fund the day to day maintenance of this facility. Their proposal is very short sighted. Yes, the idea of having commercial spaces within this building has been included to generate some income toward operating expanses, but what the seasoned gallery owner wants is foot traffic and visibility from the street. To think that this could come close to generating adequate income is unrealistic. These spaces would have a very high turn over as they go out of business. This is Herndon. Not Old Town Alexandria with lots of foot traffic and other commercial galleries to draw potential buyers.

It makes more sense for the town to lease the land to a potential developer, and include a space for art within a mixed use structure that will continue to generate income for the town in the long run, thus giving the taxpayers a return on their investment in the initial purchase of this parcel and the mortgage payments being made on it by the town as well as the taxes on this parcel.

Whoooa! This is the 21st century. ArtSpace-plus is not envisioned or operating as just an old-school boring (to me) gallery. It is not just a place to wander or buy paintings or crafted objects. ArtSpace events and uses illustrate a number of forms of expression and talent-development including workshops and learning opportunities ranging from painting to photography to writing skills and computer graphics. It is a venue and “home” for a wide range of performing arts.

"Arts-related" is broad, including artisans and entrepreneurs in a broader range of media and creative support fields, from video and TV to kinetic arts and architectural/interior design to living garden-art spaces to newer evolving growing fields of expression and communication.
ArtSpace isn't limited to traditional watercolor/oil/acrylic painting fare. The location of "Block E" along the W&OD Trail is NOT Alexandria, but ideal. The facility—even this interim endeavor—welcomes and embraces the community as a gathering space where people may find common ground and shared purpose.

We all know apartments are not vibrant shared community space.
We should know that 100% negative prognosis generates more gloom-n-doom.
Optimism is positive energy—a growing force. I support REALITY-BASED OPTIMISM.

The Arts-related block is an opportunity for shared purpose in a changing world. It can generate activity, entrepreneurial viability, and revenue in many forms from dollars to spirit of community.

Whoooa! This is the 21st century."

You are right, Ann, and we are in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great depression in this country.

"The Arts-related block is an opportunity for shared purpose in a changing world. It can generate activity, entrepreneurial viability, and revenue in many forms from dollars to spirit of community."

Correct again, Ann, but perhaps there is more than one possibility for the creation of an arts based entity on that site. Was this space publicly advertised by the town as a potential art facility? Did the Town seek bids for the use of this space? Was there open competition for the use of this space? It seems to me that this was a very closed process.

"I support REALITY-BASED OPTIMISM."

What is the financial reality here, Ann? This group does not have the money to sustain their envisioned plan even if they do raise the money to build.

As an art lover and resident of the town I would really like to see several options for the art portion of this block rather than have only choice forced on the town.

Ruth, the Downtown Master Plan process has been in the making for years. But no bids are going out on any parcels of land and no one has asked to develop it. The DTMP is simply a vision for various possible uses of land in town.

I am disheartened at how you describe the Foundation’s financials as a reflection of them being short-sighted and unsustainable. That’s like saying if you look at my checking account today it looks like I can’t afford to buy a house. The Foundation is a non-profit organization, not a for-profit organization. The Foundation cannot move forward with fundraising for a new arts-related facility until they have approval from the town to allow them this 5-year period to raise the money for it. What investor would want to grant the Foundation money for such a facility without being assured that a location is secured? As a start, the Foundation has already gotten the approval to collaborate with the county and George Mason University to apply for a large NEA grant, but that is all pending approval of the DTMP.

Again, this “arts center” is not just a bigger ArtSpace. The proposed facility along this block would be a public/private mixed complex, with retail stores, café/small restaurant, commercial/office uses, as well as an entertainment destination. Some of the public spaces within the facility would be shared and supported by the commercial/retail uses. It would help create that 24-hour synergy we are looking for in our downtown.

Barbara, we are talking apples and oranges re: the bids I mentioned. The current structure being used by Art Space is owned by the Town. Once the Town made the decision to lease the structure currently sitting on this parcel it should have advertised for tenants and asked for bids and/or proffers for its use. It is a Town owned structure, paid for by the taxpayers of Herndon, and the town owes it to its tax base to get top dollar for the use of the structure be it for the arts or for any other reason. In this time of financial crisis the Town should be getting top dollar for the use of the structure. If your come back is going to be that no one was using it, then shame on the Town.

It is incumbent on the Town to consider all presented possibilities for the use of that Parcel that are proffered once Downtown Master Plan is agreed to. That land is too valuable to be reserved for any one group's use or control. There are other viable possibilities that could include space for an entity for the cultural arts, and the Town owes it to their tax base to consider every possibility prior to committing to one group. To lock that parcel up by awarding its use even for a five year period is deterrent to developers coming forward with proffers for it's use. Among developers in this area Herndon already has the reputations one of the most difficult jurisdictions to work with.

"Again, this “arts center” is not just a bigger ArtSpace. The proposed facility along this block would be a public/private mixed complex, with retail stores, café/small restaurant, commercial/office uses, as well as an entertainment destination. Some of the public spaces within the facility would be shared and supported by the commercial/retail uses. It would help create that 24-hour synergy we are looking for in our downtown."

This could easily be incorporated into mixed use space while achieving your goals, Barbara, and at the same time the Town taxpayers could get a good return on their investment.

Two points:
1) Please, please don't ever take down the fire station in the center of town. To me that represents more history than almost any other building in the Town! I was aghast when they recently just bulldozed the Fire Station in Great Falls--it literally brought me to tears.
2) The Coomber's place that is for sale near the High School-- What a wonderful and very cool culture, arts or music facility that could be! It bears looking into.

The Coomber site makes a lot of sense for a Fairfax County Regional Art Center. High visibility from the road, Herndon High right next door, lots of land and space to build on and for parking. Herndon residents could still use it without having to use our town taxpayer dollars. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me. It would also free up the block of land that Foundation of The Cultural Arts wants to use for mixed use that could include an art entity , and as one of the posters here said give Herndon residents a better return on their tax dollars.

Way to go Grace! You are right. This does not have to be located in Herndon!

I agree with St. Jude Art Square. Please don't ever tear down the Fire Station.

OK, Ruth. I guess we'll just have to disagree. And yes, the ArtSpace building did sit empty and unused for a long time before the ArtSpace occupied it, with no one else expressing interest in it. ArtSpace pays rent to the Town for the use of the building. And the Town is not allowed to ask for proffers. Proffers are optional and can only be offered by developers/applicants. They cannot be required. See you at the next council meeting!

Hi Grace, I got the point. I was just hoping you might see the merit in this suggestion.

We were told in 2004 that the MOU that was written then was the solution that would allow fundraising to begin. But that fundraising only netted $66,000 in six years.

Now we are hearing it again - and from the same group. No? A new agreement, and THEN they can fundraise...

Put milestone fundraising requirements into any agreement that is made. A few councilpeople have said this as well. If the milestones are not met, then the town should have the option of dropping the agreement. The option does not mean that the agreement has to be terminated. But if some developer wants the property, then at least it can be developed into something more 'vibrant', if the existing building isn't good enough.

Real culture needs to be self-sustaining, or it becomes a government fabrication. In my opinion, Herndon does not exist for the purpose of collecting taxes to fund the hobbies of the few. If people really support the arts, then the arts should not be so dependent on town tax money. The downtown should be a prospering business, not a meaningless facade living on corporate welfare.

Ruth: “This group does not have the money to sustain their envisioned plan...”

First, Patch comments are not the best place for details of Town/other operations, changing plans and policies over many years, and zoning tutorials. Barbara replied re proffers (Town Zoning and other Codes explain how they work) and financing.

Next, Ruth (+ maybe Bob), you are mixing 2 separate things:

(1) 2004 HFCA-Town agreement was for “ArtSpace” type activities, PENDING future downtown plans, development proposals, or offers to buy the property, and

(2) 2011 HFCA concept proposal for Block E mixed-use arts development as part of the Downtown Master Plan.

The 2004 agreement was for an ongoing arts function on that land with the empty old garage. HFCA has been meeting that objective with funds and labor for renovation and operation of ArtSpace. There was no “Block E” on a Downtown Plan in 2004 and no expectation of raising money for that purpose.

The 2011 Downtown Plan would establish a new SEPARATE 5-year goal for a mixed-use “arts block”. IF that goal is achieved responsibly & acceptably, with financing, required site plan, etcetera, then the Town would benefit. As mentioned elsewhere, the objective is getting financial return on Town property AND trying to ensure activities in the downtown that support general commerce and community interests.

The fundamental fact now is that the Town must approve an overall “downtown plan” before ANYTHING further can happen.

Sorry Ann, it's the same group, with the same story: make an agreement so they can fundraise - but their fundraising track record really doesn't merit the special attention they get, such as making a presentation during a work session. As I say, the arts are a good thing, and I'm not terribly distressed by the million and a half dollars spent on the Hands property, plus whatever for studies. If the plan is to donate the town property to the arts, then let's just do that, and not make a silly pretense about it. But the economy of these times does not support more millions of taxpayer funded donation.

And as you say, it's only part of the downtown puzzle. What to do? I say, make a plan, and let business pay for it and profit from it. The Town should be minimally involved financially. Certain people think of the town as their private piggy bank, and that's not the purpose of its existance.

"The 2011 Downtown Plan would establish a new SEPARATE 5-year goal for a mixed-use “arts block”. IF that goal is achieved responsibly & acceptably, with financing, required site plan, etcetera, then the Town would benefit. As mentioned elsewhere, the objective is getting financial return on Town property AND trying to ensure activities in the downtown that support general commerce and community interests."

This group has had since 2004 to pull it all together, Ann. They are not financially able to sustain their goal even if they raise the $5 million to build. This is public land owned by the Town and there was no competition for its use. The Town needs to advertise to attract the best persons or group to establish an art entity on this site. Whether an art entity is incorporated into a mixed use development ( the best return on the taxpayer's dollars) or a stand alone.

I think it was Councilman Singh who suggested that this group, if granted the next five years, be required to meet interim financial goals. The first time a goal is not met it is removed from the master plan. This is solid and sound business practice.

This type of expense and taking over of Town property needs to be on the ballot in Town elections. This is something the voters need to approve rather than a very small group of people and council members with glaring conflict of interest.

I echo Bob's last post.

The Herndon Downtown must not be a burden to taxpayers. It should be a healthy, thriving business and community area. I think that if the Town winds up bankrolling it, then it will be considerably less than it should be. But if it can grow from business and free community investment, instead of government collected taxation, then it has a chance to be great.

There is no mad rush, and the Town does not need to fall all over itself to fund immediate and huge upgrades. This needs to proceed sensibly. We need to pause and consider, before we overbuild and choke the center of the Town, at great and burdensome expense.

I say, make a general plan, and let private interests build their dreams, and let business invest in it and profit from it. The Town should be minimally involved financially. If people are spending their own money, and money that they collected themselves, they will be more careful and thoughtful about what they do. But if they are thinking about how government can extract millions for them, then they will go crazy with grandiose plans that do not serve those who pay for it all. Don't let Herndon's Downtown turn into just another government handout of borrowed money.

By the way, it should be noted that there are several arts groups, and that The Council for the Arts of Herndon is not the same as The Herndon Foundation for the Cultural Arts. (I am not a member of either group.) It is easy to get them all confused.

There is no point in discussion when some folks are so fixed in negative opinions that they can't or won't recognize separate goals (2004 and 2011), the need to establish a downtown master plan, synergistic effects or any "public good".

There was no purpose in progressive achievement of the public elements of the downtown core in the 1990's if private enterprise is destroyed by hyper"protective" paranoid paralysis in the new century.

No wonder land sits vacant and existing business owners despair of getting a better density and mix of commercial activity in Herndon's downtown core. Must we watch the successes and spirit of community IN OTHER PLACES?

But ya never know – common sense might prevail. Decision-makers might even be willing to let destructive forces wallow in their own mud and work FOR progress.

"No wonder land sits vacant and existing business owners despair of getting a better density and mix of commercial activity in Herndon's downtown core. Must we watch the successes and spirit of community IN OTHER PLACES?"

I am so glad to see that you agree on mixed use for this parcel, Ann. That is exactly what we are asking the Town to do. Mixed use with an art entity contained within that mixed use.

That's why we hope the TC approves the Downtown Plan tonight.
That's what nearly all rational folks in town want, including arts-related mixed-use on Block E because there is too much residential, which leaves less space for activities and commercial.
The plan is imperfect, but opening doors to progress and hope for a future is needed.

"The plan is imperfect, but opening doors to progress and hope for a future is needed."

Ann, I agree completely. I am certain that the Downtown Master Plan will be approved tonight.

And it is! Phew, after a marathon public session, several excellent amendments, clarity added, in-the-weeds details removed, and additional flexibility added, I am pleased to say the TC voted unanimously to approve the Downtown Master Plan.

Thanks everyone for being an important and integral part of the process. It's not perfect but it's a great start!

Ok folks, when can we realistically plan on seeing any work beginning? This topic has been debated over and over again for 20+ years...........

If possible could the Herndon Patch do an article on what's being done to revitalize the Pines Shopping Center and the Kmart Shopping Center and/or encourage businesses to fill all of the voids they both have? In the Pines Shopping Center it would be nice to have a Dunkin Donuts or something like that where the bank used to be (since the bank has been empty for years). For the Kmart shopping center I'm trying to convince Aldi and Bonefish to fill some of the space, since it meets their specs and has plenty of parking. I also asked Hard Times about reopening in their old space (in the Kmart shopping center) but they said no. I guess the conflict with the building owner years ago didn't end very well. Thank you for considering this for a possible, future article.